50 Replies Latest reply on Nov 10, 2015 11:14 PM by

    Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

    Anna Ivanova

      New from the Green Chemistry Innovation Portal comes a unique opportunity to talk online with innovative scientists about their green chemistry solutions. In this online text-based Q&A, we will talk about the Berkeley Center for Green Chemistry’s Greener Solutions Program, a project-based class that partners students with organizations involved in sustainable chemistry. Interdisciplinary teams of high-level students work closely with the partner organizations to apply the students’ knowledge, analyzing real-world opportunities for the adoption of safer chemicals and materials. Hear more about the program in this video:

      The experts joining us for this session will be:

      • Tom McKeag, Berkeley Center for Green Chemistry, Program Director
      • Kaj Johnson, Senior Director of Product Development, Method
      • Meg Schwarzman, Berkeley Center for Green Chemistry, Associate Director
      • Billy Hart-Cooper, student at UC Berkeley

       

      Tom and Meg will give insider perspectives on the formation and success of Greener Solutions, while Kaj will discuss how Method came to be involved and what the innovative personal care company has gained from the program. Billy will contribute a student perspective on the advantages and challenges of participating in the Greener Solutions course.

       

      Ask the masterminds behind the Greener Solutions program anything you like: how it began, successes, lessons learned, or technical questions. Questions will be collected on this post and answered live by text on November 10th, so create a free ACS ID now and submit your question below. Come back from 3:00-4:30 ET (12-1:30 PT) on Nov. 10th to chat with the innovators and the community right here!

        • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

          Great idea.  I look forward to the discussion.

           

          Perhaps I can kick things off and ask a question around new chemistry/molecules from green chemistry principles.

           

          We are a small company in Australia that is commercializing the use of levoglucosenone from waste cellulose.  Our main product is a new solvent, dihydrolevoglucosenone (trademarked as Cyrene). 

           

          My question is, how does the panel see the process and drivers for introducing new green chemicals into the market place changing to accelerate the uptake?

            • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

              some great questions.  I'm looking forward to the panel tomorrow.

               

              Kenvan-  I would be interested in learning more about your solvent.  One of the key barriers to adoption is knowing what is in development, what unique benefits, and what is the right fit. Glad you are joining in. Kaj

              • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                Megan Schwarzman

                One of the major barriers in getting new, safer chemicals onto the market has been the historic lack of transparency about chemical hazard traits, and the absence of regulatory requirements for this information. In essence, it means that --for people who want to use safety as a criterion for chemical selection-- there's very little information on which to base their selection. Likewise, for those who want to market safer chemicals, there's no level playing field.

                 

                It's as if  cars were not generally tested for safety or marketed on that basis-- you'd have a hard time shopping for the safest car, and if you were a manufacturer who prided yourself on safety, you'd have a hard time differentiating yourself in a market where no one else was providing safety information about their cars.

                 

                This is something that should change with chemicals policy reform and is why forward-looking businesses often support such reform (see, for example: BizNGO — a unique collaboration of businesses and environmental groups working together for safer chemicals & sustainable…).

                • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                  David Constable

                  Hi Kenvan.  Great question; thanks for asking it.

                   

                  I think that one of the great challenges faced by green chemistry is to find solutions that meet published design principles.  See, e.g.,:  Principles of Green Chemistry and Green Engineering - American Chemical Society.

                   

                  If one tries to be an honest broker and incorporate as many design principles as possible into the design and development of a new product, one quickly and frequently realizes that it is difficult to balance all the principles and deliver an optimal solution.  In the case of cyrene, for example, a recent publication evaluating some of the "newer" and "greener" solvents, found cyrene was problematic from an environmental perspective.  You may read more about that here: CHEM21 selection guide of classical- and less classical-solvents - Green Chemistry (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/C5GC01.  

                   

                  The case of Cyrene is similar to that of methyl-tetrahydrofuan derived from corn cobs, and also listed as problematic in the RSC publication.  The current state of the art of green and sustainable chemistry is that there are always trade-offs and it is difficult, at times, to decide which approach is best.  In terms of commercializing these and similar products, manufacturers should be careful to present a balanced picture of these trade-offs to avoid green washing. 

                   

                  Finally, commercializing any new product, whether it is greener or not, is frequently difficult because it is likely to be displacing chemicals and processes that are highly developed and optimized.  I personally believe that your focus should be on how the product enhances the chemistry or delivers a function that is better than existing products.  The fact that it is greener is truly a great thing, but it should not be seen as the primary means for marketing.  Focus on the chemical innovation.

                • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                  Monica Becker


                  How did you choose the topics for technical study and collaboration? How can companies suggest topics that they would like you to take on?



                    • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                      The Greener Solutions course emphasizes sector-wide challenges in manufacturing and that includes a wide range of possible products and applications. Topics are chosen by a combination of factors: companies that are aware of us and have an interest in improving their products often approach us, or we might become aware of a particular pressing issue at a company and reach out to them. After that we have a discussion about expectations of each party, explaining the academic requirements we have and learning of their needs and limitations. From there, we may draft an agreement with the company and then program the course of study and consultation by the students.

                       

                      If a company has an interest in participating in our course they can send me an email to start the discussion:

                      Tom McKeag

                      Program Director, BCGC

                      tmckeag@berkeley.edu

                        • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                          For Method projects that are of interest are both sustainable solutions and ones that are needed by the business.  so for example, ideas around safer preservation solutions, higher performance cleaners that are safer are a good fit for us. 

                            • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                              Monica Becker

                              Tom and Kaj --

                               

                              What are the expectations for a company participating in the project, e.g., information, time, etc.? Company reps we work with in the GC3 are often strapped for time.

                                • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                  Megan Schwarzman

                                  We ask that the partner companies make at least one key contact person available to check in with the students on approximately a weekly basis. Sometimes they also need to direct us to other folks in the company for more technical guidance.

                                   

                                  We rely on the partners to give our students the technical context for the challenge-- what are the constraints and requirements of the product or manufacturing process? What are their criteria for a suitable alternative? They have to provide an initial orientation to the challenge and answer questions along the way, and of course they attend (either virtually or in-person) the final presentation. We've heard from partners that they spend about 10 hrs/month on the collaboration.

                                   

                                  In our experience, the companies gain so much from the students' investigation that it's worth their time up front.

                                  • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                    As long as the students get a lot out of it and it helps bring in new value for the company then it's obviously been a great investment for everyone.  I can say in the case of working with UCB class on safer preservative and now on oily soil removal, it has absolutely been a win for Method and i certainly hope that the students are learning new things that might not have happened in standard class room discussions.

                                     

                                    for example,  Billy is now taking his class exercise and has already developed some great new tools on how we screen safer preservatives in a high through put manner.  He has made huge progress and explored great new approaches to tackling this long standing challenge.  He is now working jointly with several very innovative green chemistry partners to take the learning in all new directions.  i feel its been a huge success both for us and hopefully a lot of fun learning, and sense of accomplishment for him.

                            • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                              Laura Reyes

                              The Greener Solutions Program is a great opportunity for graduate students to gain hands-on experience in applying green chemistry to a real problem in industry. How would you recommend this be done on a shorter timescale, i.e. a half-day workshop instead of a semester-long course? Is there a resource somewhere for existing case studies which could be analyzed by grad students? Thanks!

                                • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                  The Greener Solutions course is scalable to a shorter timeframe, but there are some challenges to replicating a 15 week course as a half day event. Chief among them are: the time it takes to frame the problem as a team, the research needed to understand some possible solutions and their relative merits (cost/benefit), and the time needed to make a judgement or brainstorm an innovation. Also, and very importantly, this is an interdisciplinary course and students come from a variety of backgrounds. That means that they have different levels of knowledge in different fields, and it takes time to "ramp" everyone up to a certain level of awareness of say, toxicology or hazard assessment. One of the great things about the course is that students teach each other what they know best in the course of working as a team, and that takes time and trust.

                                  One method of condensing the course would be to have pre-prepared research "cheat sheets" on chemical options that the students could review and use as the basis for their problem-solving.

                                  • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                    William Hart-Cooper

                                    A half-day might be a bit short for working through the full process of the course as-is, but I could see it being enough time to introduce students to the types of challenges that are out there. I agree, case studies might be a great way top get students exposed to these problems. Projects completed by in this course are available on the BCGC website (http://bcgc.berkeley.edu/greenersolutions).

                                  • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                    The Greener Solutions Program is such a great course! I wish something like this was offered at my university. Do you have any plans to open it up to interested students or graduates not at UC Berkeley, perhaps as a continuing education course? Or as a stand-alone, condensed program?

                                    • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                      The chemistry I took in college did not focus on industry problems, and I think that this is still true at many colleges and universities. Yet many chemistry students graduate and seek employment in industry. Do you think that participating in a program like this give students an advantage if they want to be hired in industry?

                                        • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                          Yes, that is definitely one of the positive impacts of this course. We have placed several students into working positions at companies as a direct extension of this course, and we have surveyed students about this and gotten responses that they do feel more aware of industry practices, although it is hard to quantify if their ability to get hired has been improved.

                                          • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                            William Hart-Cooper

                                            I agree with Tom, and it might be helpful if I shared my experiences from participating in the course last year.

                                             

                                            Here are several ways in which the course helped me professionally. (1) The course instructors did a fantastic job teaching these concepts and providing a framework to evaluate safety aspects of chemicals, thereby teaching an important and valued skill in industry. (2) The course also centers around collaboration between industry partners and students, which allowed our student group to learn about green chemistry challenges faced by industry and build relationships with representatives from industry. (3) During the course, your student team develops a proposal for addressing a green chemistry challenge, which provides an opportunity for you to contribute a unique perspective to this problem which you can build upon.

                                             

                                            All of the points above were important complements to my graduate studies. In collaboration with Method and the USDA, our proposal also served as a starting point for ongoing laboratory work.

                                             

                                            The problems a student might work on in their undergraduate or graduate courses may not seem to have much in common with problems faced in industry. However, in my experience, seemingly unrelated studies during my graduate and undergraduate courses and research have been enormously helpful as we continue laboratory testing of the ideas proposed in this course.

                                          • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                            This sounds like an amazing course! I see on the greener solutions webpage that companies can ask student groups to address very specific challenges. Have these asks been more technical, on an R&D level, or have they been looking for broader sustainability solutions? Have you found that some projects are better suited to interdisciplinary teams than others, and, if so, why?

                                            Thanks!

                                              • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                i loved the interdisciplinary team approach.  it was not only fun to watch the interaction but everyone was able to bring a totally different perspective to new ideas so that you get to much better solutions in an efficient way.  i also think this is a lot like the business world where you have a lot of different expertise brought into the puzzle.

                                                 

                                                in terms of sustainability vs technical solutions, i believe they go together.  some times a good answer is better sustainability.  other times it's more technical.  the best is when both viewpoints are taken together to simultaneous address both.  That is what i think is great about the UCB approach.

                                                • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                  Megan Schwarzman

                                                  We select the challenges specifically to serve our goal: teaching students about technical considerations of material selection within an interdisciplinary setting. So, we don't take on broader questions of sustainability. We find a chemical function in a material, product, or manufacturing process that is currently being served by a hazardous chemical and walk students through the process of identifying potentially safer alternatives. They have to evaluate technical feasibility and relative hazard of both the existing chemical and potential substitutes. And we teach them to look broadly, beyond drop-in chemical substitution to process redesign.

                                                • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                  Great course.  What are the challenges to an academic science department taking on such an applied, service oriented course and how were those barriers addressed?

                                                  • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                    Hi and thanks for giving us this opportunity to ask questions!

                                                     

                                                    I was wondering what types of compulsory courses are integrated into the Berkeley Green Chemistry curriculum?  Namely, what are the courses that specifically address environmental and human health impacts?  Traditionally, when pursuing a degree in Chemistry, these courses are not found in the syllabus.  I would like to hear more about what the Berkeley course requirements include and most importantly, you have heard of more Colleges and Universities adopting such courses in their core curriculum?

                                                     

                                                    Thanks

                                                      • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                        The Greener Solutions course is by design interdisciplinary and project driven, so it is difficult to require base courses of the students and get the talent mix that we want: public health, toxicology, engineering, chemistry. That said, we do offer courses as part of Berkeley Center for Green Chemistry that are required for our SAGE IGERT fellows (two year funding). The Greener Solutions course, and introduction to Green Chemistry and energy, and opportunities to pursue independent study courses related to projects that were started in the regular classes.

                                                      • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                          Hello, me and my team have the following questions:

                                                        • How well accepted is using GMOs to obtain green building blocks.  Whether harvesting plants that are modified to use for instance less water or are resistant to pest (e.g. corn) or organisms used in biotechnological industrial plants in fermenters (open space vs. controlled and safe use of GMOs) are the way to go- or none of both and just use what nature gives us? This especially would be of interest in regard to that the chemical industry is always seen as the bad guys- polluting nature and then also playing around with GMOs.
                                                        • If we use agricultural waste (orange peels, cashew shells) or other waste sources  how can we overcome problems related to economy of scale and transportation of waste streams to the plant- especially when thinking of commodity products. For the pharma or agro business I can see the sense in flexible plants producing relatively low amounts of the desired product- but for polymers it perhaps is more difficult .
                                                        • Does green chemistry focus too much on existing chemistry, e.g. finding direct drop-ins or near drop-ins? If we could use building blocks from nature that have not been used in polymers so far, and are especially useful for performance polymers, how can we find them? Are there computational models to find suitable candidates?

                                                          

                                                          • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                            David Constable

                                                            Hi Ernesto!  Thanks for a few excellent questions.  Let me try to answer them from my perspective.

                                                             

                                                            • GMO's have been used in a variety of semi-synthetic processes in Pharma for many years now.  So, for example, for antibiotics like penecillins and cephalosporins the beta-lactam ring portion of the molecule is produced using GMO's.  The basic building block for the anti-cancer compound Taxol, originally produced from a Pacific Yew tree extract, was produced in the 3rd generation process from a GMO building block.  More recently, companies like Solazyme, who make tailored oils (e.g., chemical equivalent of palm, corn, soybean, etc.) and Amyris who make chemicals like farnesane (a drop in diesel replacement) and squalene (used in cosmetic formulations) are developing markets for their products.  Companies like Myriant, BioAmber, and BASF are using GMO's to produce bio-based succinic acid as a route to butane dixoide and other specialty chemicals/polymers.  In each of these cases, there are a variety of issues related to the carbon source (e.g., sugar or starch/sugar), water, micro-nutrients required for growth, etc. that need to be managed in addition to water.  In general, it is my opinion that you will see a greater use of synthetic biology in the future because it will give greater access to molecular diversity not easily obtained from petrochemical building blocks, but this will take some time because chemists like to use the same building blocks.
                                                            • I personally don't think that food wastes should be used for commodity chemical production but for specialty chemical production.  Make use of the chemical diversity that exists in protein, or in lignin rather than burning it or sending it to waste treatment.  In general, production needs to be distributed so it is in the area in which the waste is produced.  This would reduce transportation-related impacts.  Also, we need to move towards the concept of a bio-refinery in a manner that is similar to a modern petrochemical plant, where mass and energy efficiency has been highly optimized.  For commodity chemicals and/or polymers, I think we would be better served by GMO's fermenting sugar or algae/cyanobacteria producing the large scale quantities.
                                                            • Yes, too many chemists are focused on replicating existing building blocks rather than thinking about designing a molecule that is better for a particular synthetic target.  In general, I think we need to transition chemistry education to have chemists more aware of different approaches to how to make new molecules.

                                                            DJCC

                                                            • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                              You raise an interesting and timely question about GMO and of course this is being developed as a foundational business model by several companies, such as Amyris, so this is a reality from the science and technology standpoint. What society probably needs more of is  experts to guide us in the wise use of such technologies, and the methods to assess impact. In my opinion, these should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis on their relative merits and impacts.

                                                              • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                Megan Schwarzman

                                                                In response to your third question, there's tremendous potential for creativity in looking beyond drop-in replacements to existing chemistry.

                                                                 

                                                                In the Greener Solutions course we have the freedom to think very creatively, and so we work with our students to reduce the challenge to a chemical function, say, cross-linking (in a challenge to replace formaldehyde in permanent press fabrics), or UV-activated phase-change (in a challenge to improve the resins used in 3D printing).

                                                                 

                                                                The students then take that chemical function and query the biological literature, looking for where in nature there is cross-linking or coordinated phase-change. This approach takes them far beyond the quick drop-in chemical replacements based on existing chemistry.

                                                                 

                                                                Other programs --such as the EPA's DfE program-- have different constraints, and they're limited to considering existing alternatives, and that's inherently more limited.

                                                                • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                                  i absolutely love the focus on taking waste and making good.  Especially where nature has unique tools to do things better.  If production can be near where the waste is at then that makes it even more interesting.

                                                                   

                                                                  The point on existing versus unique chemistry is a consistent question.  It feels certainly more valuable and disruptive to focus on unique benefits where nature has the advantage.  if nature produces it, then generally it knows how to take it apart.  Biology likes to insert polar groups that can be a useful tool in some ingredients like emollients, surfactants, solvents, chelates and polymers.  Both needs can be met by Nature and so it gives us a lot of opportunities and design ideas in many different applications

                                                                    • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                      Monica Becker

                                                                      I am amazed at how much traction the "circular economy" concept is getting these days.  I get an article a day on this topic at least.  See for example this program Circular Economy - Ellen MacArthur Foundation

                                                                      The idea is definitely appealing from a waste reduction, resource use perspective, eliminating upstream resource extraction and processing steps.  For us old timers, wondering how different this movement is from the old "Industrial Ecology" movement and of course what are the implications for green chemistry objectives?  When I have some time I'm going to dig in the CE literature and try to figure it out but if anyone has any thoughts, would welcome them!

                                                                        • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                          David Constable

                                                                          Hi Monica.  Great question.

                                                                           

                                                                          My understanding of Industrial Ecology, as exemplified by the first and most famous park at Kalundborg, is that companies take waste streams and energy from one industrial plant directly as feedstock for their product as in the case of CaSO4 from a power plant SO2 scrubber to make gypsum board (sheetrock).  So, it is business-to-business waste exchange.

                                                                           

                                                                          In the case of the circular economy or wast valorization, it is taking commercial products at end of life and using these as feedstocks for new products.  The issue is how to dematerialize products during design (i.e., use less stuff to make them) and design them for reuse, recycle or as feedstocks.

                                                                           

                                                                          Either way, I think we need to continue to develop both approaches.  In each of these, there are a huge number of chemistry challenges such as separations, designing polymers that can be "unzipped" back to their monomers,etc.  No lack of opportunities for green chemistry and engineering in the circular economy!

                                                                          • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                                            Hi Monica,

                                                                             

                                                                            …funny you should mention this: BCGC is currently participating in the EMF Disruptive Innovation Festival, an online event, and showing four videos of different perspectives on the role of green chemistry in the Circular Economy. We are listed under the UC Berkeley Big Top Tent and have been collaborating with the Dave Dornfeld group of our Mechanical Engineering dept. The videos are being first shown this week at 1100 PST Mon-Thursday but will be available for viewing for 30 days thereafter.

                                                                            Here is a link to the third in our series being shown tomorrow:

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            Green Chemistry in the Circular Economy part 3/4 “Regulatory Law” - DIF 2015

                                                                      • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                        Anna Ivanova

                                                                        Welcome, everyone! Our innovators are now available to answer your questions, and they are typing away. Refresh your browser page every few minutes to see new questions and answers.

                                                                         

                                                                        This event is made possible by the Green Chemistry Innovation Portal. Visit the Portal for more information and see our Green Chemistry Innovation Map.

                                                                        • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                          Anna Ivanova

                                                                          Feel free to join in to ask, answer, or discuss questions even if you're not an official panelist! We welcome the entire green chemistry community.

                                                                          • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                            Anna Ivanova

                                                                            What impact has the Greener Solutions course had on the participating companies? Does working with the interdisciplinary teams of students change how the company approaches problems in practice?

                                                                              • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                                                It's hard to quantify the impact that the course has had on business practice or research and development. However, just the fact that we have green chemistry experts now working in some of these private venues is proof of the value that these companies are seeing in this approach to problem solving and innovation.

                                                                                 

                                                                                For example at Autodesk whom we are working with this fall, the sustainability group there has gotten a lot of very positive support from the C-suite and we now have someone working with their resident chemist on improved resins. This has led to the formation of an interested team of folks who would ordinarily not be working together, and who are now part of a wider company initiative to open source printer technology and seek better standards for the industry.

                                                                              • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                                Anna Ivanova

                                                                                Billy: What's been your favorite part of the Greener Solutions Program? Did you gain any specific skills that will be helpful in industry?

                                                                                 

                                                                                Kaj: What have you liked the most about working with students and BCGC in this program? Did you learn anything new, or encounter unexpected challenges?

                                                                                  • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program
                                                                                    William Hart-Cooper

                                                                                    Thanks for the question--I had two favorite parts:


                                                                                    (1) Working with a fantastic group of mentors and collaborators: instructors mentors from industry and other students. Everyone brings enthusiasm and a valuable perspective.

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    (2) The opportunity to understand, relate and contribute to an important  challenge that if fully addressed, might be a huge improvement to human and environmental health.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    There were also many other valuable aspects to the course, some of which we touched on in the response to Laura Reyes's question above.

                                                                                    • Re: Ask the Innovators: Spotlight on Berkeley's Greener Solutions Program

                                                                                      i am constantly learning from Billy.  He brings great ideas, he is a brilliant chemist, and besides that he is a ton of fun to work with.  He is super to collaborate with and asks great questions that makes me think about challenges in different ways.  We always have surprises and that is part of the fun.  sometimes the answers are obvious but often we have to go away and think about it.  That is what a good partnership is all about.